A Wide-Ranging Conversation with Gary Player

Gary Player was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 1935, a place he frequently refers to as a ‘hobo jungle.” He didn’t start playing golf until he was 14, but he went on to win 160 tournaments around the world, including nine major championships. In 1962, he won the PGA Championship at Aronimink Golf Club in Philadelphia, and he was on site this past week to help present the Wanamaker Trophy to the winner, England’s Aaron Rai. On Sunday morning, Player agreed to sit down inside the Aronimink clubhouse with our own Kevin Van Valkenburg for a friendly conversation, one that KVV has been anticipating for years. 

Kevin Van Valkenburg: Good morning Mr. Player, how are you? 

Gary Player: I’m wonderful, Kevin. Where are you from?

Kevin: I'm from Montana. Have you been to Montana?

Gary: Oh yes. Oh, what a state that I love. There's beautiful ranches out there. I've got a friend I designed a golf course for in New York, he took me out to his ranch. Oh, it’s paradise. I'm a farmer, you know.

Kevin: I know. I’ve actually read a lot about you. I’ve read that you used to love ranching more than golfing.

Gary: It’s true. I did. So you just come in for the PGA?

Kevin: I did. I work for a company called Fried Egg Golf. We write about a lot of different golf things — a lot about golf architecture, a lot of player interviews, fun discussions about pro golf. We have a couple podcasts. Do you ever listen to podcasts?

Gary: You know, not really. I'm not a great phone guy. I like to read more. The phone takes up a lot of your time. You can become really addicted to it. I've got a girlfriend at 90 now. She wants me to marry her, and I said, “I'm not going to marry you. I'm not getting married at 91!” But I said, “You should marry your phone.” She's on that phone so much. Oh, it becomes so addictive. And kids today, they don't read anymore.

Kevin: Yeah, they don't.

Gary: They don't read and they should.

Kevin: I agree, they should.

Gary: Keep the phone. But do some reading!

Kevin: What do you think we could do better with kids? I’ve got three daughters, myself. They're all teenagers.

Gary: Well, I think if you look at a kid in Israel, he's three times tougher than an American kid. And let me say this to you. There's nobody in this country that loves America more than I do. And I have 15 American grandchildren. I have three children that are American citizens, but I don't think the education is good enough. In South Africa, if you go to a high school, the kids speak four languages. They go to gym three times a week at school. They've taken the gym out of schools instead of adding more. And the kids here are very spoiled. They have a beautiful home, car, clothes, school, three meals a day. Not tough enough. Got to be tougher. And if America wants to maintain its position as number one, the youth of a nation are the trustees of posterity. So my life now is to speak to children about fitness. You’ve got to look after your body. Parents, don't feed your children crap! If they’ve started to get overweight, do something about it. Make them exercise. Make them realize what a great country America is. See, I've traveled more miles than any human being ever.

Kevin: Sure.

Gary: And America, they don't know how lucky they are to have it. When I hear these politicians criticizing and saying nasty things about America… Look, criticism is a good thing to a degree. But man, I just like to take these people and let me set them to some places I've been in the world. They will kiss the ground every day of their life when they come back here.

Kevin: Do you think America could improve in any way?

Gary: I think there's more socialism coming in America than I like to see taking place and that perturbs me. I'd like to read something to you.

Kevin: Please do. 

[At this point in the interview, Mr. Player reached into the front pocket of his suit jacket and pulled out a folded piece of paper with quotes from Winston Churchill he’d copied down in black marker.]

Gary: Churchill is the greatest leader the world ever had. Churchill said — I wrote this down — he said, "There are only two places in the world where socialism works where they don't want it and where it exists. One is in heaven where they don't need it and the other is in hell, they need it every day." And then he also went on to say, it's easy to spend other people's money. It's a failed philosophy. All places that adopted it failed miserably. 

[Editor’s Note: It was actually Ronald Reagan who said the heaven and hell quote in the 1970s prior to becoming president.]

Kevin: That makes me wonder what you think the future of LIV Golf might be. It seems like they’ve spent a lot of people's money.

Gary: LIV Golf? Well, as of now they've said it's finished. They've said it's come to an end.

Kevin: Well, not quite. The Saudis have said they aren't backing it financially beyond this season. 

Gary: I see. Well, when you look at LIV as it is, I don't know how much was spent on LIV every week and in its entirety, but it's billions. Is there anybody else that's going to take that up?

Kevin: I think that's what they're trying to figure out. Seems unlikely.

Gary: It's unlikely. I'm not saying it won't happen, but to that degree, you might find somebody saying, “Well, we'll take it over, but we'll cut the prize money by 10.” Or some theory. But it's a big problem that we're facing now because these guys took the money, they made their bed and that’s fine, that was a choice. That's the great thing about America. You have a choice. But now if they want to come back, these other guys that have fulfilled the role, are you going to kick them in the ass? No. So now how do you bring them back? Whatever reason they're accepted back, there is going to have to be some sacrifice, some penalty, something. They cannot just say “I'm coming back.” Whatever it is, I don't know. I'm not running the Tour, but it's a big problem. And the thing that's so sad about it all is the separation of the tours. When Arnold, Jack, and I won a tournament, we were the champions of the world that week. Now you've got half a champion. When you win a tournament now, you're half a champion. Don't ever tell yourself you're the champion of the world because you're not.

Kevin: Other than the majors.

Gary: Yes.

Kevin: In 1962, you and Jack and Arnie won all four of the majors. Arnie won the Masters and the Open, Jack won the U.S. Open, and you won the PGA at Aronimink. What do you remember about 1962? Is that the best year of golf ever? 

Gary: That’s right! Very few people know that. 

Kevin: Well, I do my research, Mr. Player. 

‍Gary: I'm really impressed that you realized that.

Kevin: Thank you. 

Gary: It was something. Arnold, Jack, and I, I don't know, you could do your homework, but we must have won 350 golf tournaments in our lives. I won 165 at least and we won at least 350. You should work that out sometime. It was an incredible time in my life. They were two marvelous ambassadors for America and the game. Jack is my best friend. And I miss Arnold terribly.

Kevin: What do you miss about him?

Gary: Well, Arnold was so charismatic. He was like me, he loved people. You know, he came to my ranch in South Africa. He came to my home. He played in our tournament, our state championship. We went to Japan. We went to China. We went everywhere together. And I stayed at his house and I flew with him in his airplane. He was a bit of a cowboy. He never worried about too many things. I used to crap myself when I would fly with him. I'd be lying on the floor because I was too scared to look. I remember him at Firestone one year. We were playing in the tournament and he hadn't played well so he left early. He’s up in his plane and it comes down right over the course. Everybody was ducking. The FAA jumped on his ass very quickly.

Kevin: He buzzed the tower, did he? 

Gary: Yes! Oh, we had such great battles against each other, Arnold, Jack, and I. We beat each other pretty equally. Jack won more majors, but we beat each other. I mean, I played Jack in the World Match Play Championship in England, 36 holes. Twice I beat him, 6 and 4, and 5 and 4. I beat him head-to-head in the open championship in England. Beat him in the Masters. We had great battles, great battles. 

Kevin: What made Jack your best friend?

Gary: Well, our families were very similar. We both had many children, many grandchildren. And I've always said Jack Nicklaus’ record in golf is the best record. You can say what you like, who you think is the best player, but I go by the bottom line. His record is the best record. His family and I, we had almost the same amount of children. Our wives got on together. We traveled the world together and Jack Nicklaus was the greatest gentleman I ever played golf with. Now we know how good he was, but he was the greatest gentleman.

‍Kevin: Do you think it's possible for a golfer to rise up from the sort of circumstances that you did? I mean, your dad used to go down in the gold mines, two miles into the earth, every day for 30 years. You got strong by climbing a rope that hung from a tree in your yard. You used to dig lost golf balls out of a pond with your bare feet. That kind of background seems almost unthinkable these days. 

Gary: You really know your stuff! Jeez. I’m impressed. 

Kevin: Well, I told you, I have read a lot about you, Mr. Player. 

Gary: Thank you. 

Kevin: It seems like that world has kind of disappeared in terms of shaping young golfers. They’ve all got swing coaches, some of them have Trackman, and a lot of them have to fly to every big junior tournament. You lived a very different life. 

Gary: It’s true. You know, Winston Churchill was my great hero and he said change is the price of survival. And we are changing. I mean, when I think about how I grew up, climbing that rope hanging from the tree in our yard … My brother had a shilling, which was 12 cents. He said if you climb that rope, it’s yours. Man, I tried and I never got up. I tried and I tried and I tried. But then I did it. Every day. Coming from a poor family, when it was raining, I practiced in the rain. When it was cold, I went down without a jersey. When it was hot, I put an extra jersey on because I knew those were the conditions. I exercised. I slept. I read. I studied. I laughed and loved people and was grateful for the opportunity to play. I’m so thankful. 

Kevin: What do you think drove you to be great in your heart? I remember you talking about how you'd stare in the mirror in a tai chi position and you'd slap yourself over and over and you'd tell yourself, "I’m going to have the patience of a lion. I’m going to hit more balls than anyone who ever lived. I’m going to love everyone I see." Why did you have that inner fire? 

Gary: That's something we don't know. If you take golf, it's a fascinating subject. There have only been, in my opinion at the end of their career, 15 superstars. In my opinion, you've got to win six majors and only 15 people have done that. Why? You had a man like Tom Weiskopf who basically was as good, if not better, than Jack Nicklaus at hitting the ball. He won one major. Why is it that we went on to win the Grand Slam and he didn’t? 

Kevin: Well, why do you think it happens for some guys and not others? 

Gary: There is something called IT. I mean, Weiskopf was a better golfer than me. Many guys were better than me, but they couldn't beat me and win the majors like I did. And why? What is it? It's a God-given, in my opinion. God-given. Which, if you say that today, a lot of people would criticize you because you love God. But it was a God-given gift that was loaned to you. It is not permanent, it’s loaned. I've got a friend, one of my best friends, he's basically a scientist. He reads about the mind and everything. I said, "What is it?" He says, "It's indefinable." Why do you have a LeBron James or a Michael Jordan or a Jack Nicklaus when people can play as well as they can and practice as well, and yet they don't win? They don't become a superstar. What is it? I think about it every day in my life. Literally every day of my life. It's indefinable, really.

Kevin: I always feel like you've had a writer's heart inside you because you come up with these very funny analogies like saying that the 12th hole of Augusta has crippled more people than polio. I once heard you describe Elvis' golf grip as like he was a cow giving birth to a roll of barbed wire. Or when you said that Chambers Bay was designed by a man with one leg shorter than the other. How do you come up with these things?

Gary: [laughing] I would say it’s because I read a lot and it educates you and you've got lots of ammunition, probably. It gets you into trouble sometimes. It does. 

Kevin: Are there any books you'd recommend?

Gary: The best book I've read is the Bible because it teaches you so much. Boy, does that teach you. You learn to realize that adversity is a gift, not an enemy, of hard work. Know thy mother and thy father. To have faith in your life is so important. Now the Bible covers every subject, every subject from Goliath to the giants, to the small guys. And everybody says to me, "Imagine if you were born and you were bigger and stronger." I said, "I wouldn't have done as well."

Kevin: Speaking of moms, I remember reading in your autobiography that even though your mom died when you were nine years old, even, 20 years later, you would still wake up in the middle of the night sometimes crying, dreaming of her. What do you remember about her? 

Gary: I was 33. That’s probably the last time I remember vividly. I was 33 years of age and I cried for my mom. You know, they've just done my lifetime story and it will be coming out on Amazon pretty soon. They had a picture of my mother and I spoke about it. Hard not to be tearful because I mean, I lost her when I was nine, that's tough. And my brother went to war at 17. This all happened at the same time. My mother dies, my father's down in the gold mine. My brother goes at 17 out of high school to fight for the American flag at 17. Then my sister's at boarding school and I go to one of the greatest high schools on the planet [King Edward VII School in Johannesburg], maybe the greatest. Education-wise, we had a dress code, we learned manners, prayer, exercise.

I would come home, which took an hour and a half by streetcar, and when I’d get home, nobody was there. Got to make my bed, make my food, all by myself. I’d sit on a bench at night because I wanted to have some people, and listening to the traffic, sitting at a public bench, that was how I had people. One night, my friend from across the road invited me into his house. He became a dear friend. It was a great gift. It makes you appreciate things. It makes you humble. Now there's a great difference between being positive and being humble. People would say to me at the press conferences when I was winning, "Well, who do you think is going to win this week?" I said, "I'm going to win." They would say, “That's a very conceited opinion.” Well, what must I say? Somebody else is going to win? Then what the hell am I doing there? So it's a very close thing.

Kevin: You turned 90 this year. What does turning 100 years old look like for Gary Player? 

Gary: That's my dream. I went to India to study how to reach 100, and they gave me 11 things to work on, which I'm pretty good at. I'm not losing enough weight. That's the one thing that he said. He said, "If you want to reach a hundred, when you get to 50, you must be three pounds under your fighting weight." My fighting weight was 153. I weigh 163 now. So I've got to lose 13 pounds. And I tell you what, it's all here. 

[At this point, Player grabs his stomach.] 

Gary: I know what I have to do. 

Kevin: What do you think about all these weight-loss drugs like Ozempic that have become so popular? 

Gary: Well, that's a very good question because I've studied this and I see some of my friends who've lost a hundred pounds. Look at Charles Barkley. People are saying, "Well, what are the aftereffects?" I said, "Whatever they are, they cannot be as bad as being 50 pounds overweight." Because being 50 pounds overweight will ruin your knees, your ankles, and your heart, your entire body. So if I was 50 pounds overweight, I'd take it. Well, I say I would, but I'm a great believer in fasting. I don't think you need more than two meals a day. The guy in India said, "I have one meal a day," and he says, "You in the West have two meals, but don't have three." I said, "What's the bad meal?" He said, "Dinner." I said, "Why is that? " He says, "Do you put gas in your car when you park in the garage at night?"

Kevin: Probably not. Unless you're going to get up and run a marathon or walk 36 holes in the morning. 

Gary: Listen, I exercise and I don't eat bacon. I took an oath to God. I'd never have another piece of bacon or ice cream. That was 28 years ago. I loved them both and I missed them both so much. I wish I was a Catholic. I could go back and say, "Father, listen, will you forgive me, may I go back?" I do eat bread, there's no food value in bread. I've got to learn to cut out bread. I've cut out coffee. My hands were getting a little bit arthritic and my doctor said, "Cut out coffee." So I've cut it out. My girlfriend, she can't believe it. But I went cold turkey. So if you want to reach 100, you've got to make some sacrifices. 

Kevin: All right, last question. What does it feel like when you hit a great shot still at this age? 

Gary: You know, I've beaten my age now 3,400 times in a row.

Kevin: I’ve heard. 

Gary: I'd say I shoot an average of around 74. That's 2-over par. So I probably average 15 strokes under my age every time I play. It's a thrill and I'm still searching for little things, a new shaft, a new exercise I must do to increase my distance. It never stops and it's an incentive to keep you alive. You've got to be incentivized in life, I think. So I want to reach 100, I'd like to do that. I love it. I love my life and I love my work.