40, no kids, no interest in fighting.
I haven't been able to play much the last couple years due to a family health issue, but am going to try to hit the links a bunch more in 2026 on.
My favorite courses in the area in the affordable/public tier are St John's (Elkton), Stillwater, Jax Beach, or Eagle Landing. Hyde Park too when it is in good shape.
40, no kids, no interest in fighting.
I haven't been able to play much the last couple years due to a family health issue, but am going to try to hit the links a bunch more in 2026 on.
My favorite courses in the area in the affordable/public tier are St John's (Elkton), Stillwater, Jax Beach, or Eagle Landing. Hyde Park too when it is in good shape.
Apologies for the logrolling, but this video by our team on Gil Hanse's work at Seminole Golf Club rocks. I had nothing to do with it, so I like to think my opinion is not wholly worthless here.
I'm presenting it for discussion because I think this project at Seminole is notable in a couple of ways:
Over on Golf Club Atlas, an occasionally contentious discussion of Seminole's decision-making has unfolded over the past several months. A key contributor has been Hal Hicks, a former Seminole superintendent who opposes the recent work. Hicks knows his stuff and makes a lot of strong points, but he's obviously — understandably — advocating for the version of the course he knows best and spent much of his career nurturing. His work is now literally being buried. That can't be easy.
For me, the critical question is whether Ross's greens are better, more artful, more interesting, and more playable than Wilson's. To my eye, they appear to be, yes.
Anyway, the Golf Club Atlas thread seems to have reached maturity, because a few members are now implying that we're doing PR for Seminole, and that's the only possible reason that the club deigned to let our crew on the grounds. Couldn't possibly be that Andy, Cameron, and Matt earned the opportunity by helping us establish a reputation for doing good, fair work.
Apologies for the logrolling, but this video by our team on Gil Hanse's work at Seminole Golf Club rocks. I had nothing to do with it, so I like to think my opinion is not wholly worthless here.
I'm presenting it for discussion because I think this project at Seminole is notable in a couple of ways:
Over on Golf Club Atlas, an occasionally contentious discussion of Seminole's decision-making has unfolded over the past several months. A key contributor has been Hal Hicks, a former Seminole superintendent who opposes the recent work. Hicks knows his stuff and makes a lot of strong points, but he's obviously — understandably — advocating for the version of the course he knows best and spent much of his career nurturing. His work is now literally being buried. That can't be easy.
For me, the critical question is whether Ross's greens are better, more artful, more interesting, and more playable than Wilson's. To my eye, they appear to be, yes.
Anyway, the Golf Club Atlas thread seems to have reached maturity, because a few members are now implying that we're doing PR for Seminole, and that's the only possible reason that the club deigned to let our crew on the grounds. Couldn't possibly be that Andy, Cameron, and Matt earned the opportunity by helping us establish a reputation for doing good, fair work.
Calumet Country Club — a Donald Ross design in Homewood, Illinois (just south of Chicago) — has closed permanently, according to W&E Ventures, the depressingly named company that owns the property. Read a Patch article on this development here.
W&E, which purchased Calumet in 2020, cited an effort "to prevent vagrancy and security issues" as its rationale for shutting down "all golf course operations" and removing "all infrastructure throughout the property."
You know what else might have helped make the golf course safer? Reopening and restaffing it.
Anyway, Calumet has been struggling for a while, but it was an important fixture in the Chicago golf scene (the former home club of Fried Egg founder Andy Johnson, in fact), and I'm sad to see it go.
Calumet Country Club — a Donald Ross design in Homewood, Illinois (just south of Chicago) — has closed permanently, according to W&E Ventures, the depressingly named company that owns the property. Read a Patch article on this development here.
W&E, which purchased Calumet in 2020, cited an effort "to prevent vagrancy and security issues" as its rationale for shutting down "all golf course operations" and removing "all infrastructure throughout the property."
You know what else might have helped make the golf course safer? Reopening and restaffing it.
Anyway, Calumet has been struggling for a while, but it was an important fixture in the Chicago golf scene (the former home club of Fried Egg founder Andy Johnson, in fact), and I'm sad to see it go.
Howdy folks! In case I haven't introduced myself, I'm Beau and manage product here at Fried Egg. What does that mean and why is it relevant to you? Who knows!
But in all seriousness, I just wanted to drop a note that we're working on a couple enhancements to our community forum that should make your experience using it better. In short order, we'll add the ability to follow a topic and/or post.
If you follow a topic, you will receive an email alert anytime someone creates a new post in the topic. This will be great if you're particularly interested in a single topic (architecture) and want to know anytime something new happens.
If you follow a post (e.g. your local carton), you'll get notified every time someone comments on the post. This should be helpful to follow along and stay up to date if folks are setting up rounds in your local area, etc.
I'll let you know here once the update is completed but it shouldn't take that long (famous last words!).
There's also already a great post (https://www.thefriedegg.com/members/forum/forum-technicals) started on forum enhancement requests but if you have other things you'd like to see please let me know.
Cheers!
Howdy folks! In case I haven't introduced myself, I'm Beau and manage product here at Fried Egg. What does that mean and why is it relevant to you? Who knows!
But in all seriousness, I just wanted to drop a note that we're working on a couple enhancements to our community forum that should make your experience using it better. In short order, we'll add the ability to follow a topic and/or post.
If you follow a topic, you will receive an email alert anytime someone creates a new post in the topic. This will be great if you're particularly interested in a single topic (architecture) and want to know anytime something new happens.
If you follow a post (e.g. your local carton), you'll get notified every time someone comments on the post. This should be helpful to follow along and stay up to date if folks are setting up rounds in your local area, etc.
I'll let you know here once the update is completed but it shouldn't take that long (famous last words!).
There's also already a great post (https://www.thefriedegg.com/members/forum/forum-technicals) started on forum enhancement requests but if you have other things you'd like to see please let me know.
Cheers!
Reposting to bring a little more visibility.
We have 3 open slots at Golden Gate Park GC next week on Wed 11/19. We have 2:48 and 3:00 booked and there's currently 5 of us lined up to play. Would love to fill those 3 extra slots with anyone that is interested.
If on the off chance you're unfamiliar with GGPGC, Jay Blasi re-did the course a few years ago and it is awesome now. A super fun 9 hole par 3.
Cheers!
Reposting to bring a little more visibility.
We have 3 open slots at Golden Gate Park GC next week on Wed 11/19. We have 2:48 and 3:00 booked and there's currently 5 of us lined up to play. Would love to fill those 3 extra slots with anyone that is interested.
If on the off chance you're unfamiliar with GGPGC, Jay Blasi re-did the course a few years ago and it is awesome now. A super fun 9 hole par 3.
Cheers!
35, married, 2 (soon to be 3) kids, little (but not zero) interest in fighting
I live in Southwest Houston. Primarily play around there (River Pointe, Meadowbrook Farms), but will go all across the Houston metro.
Favorite courses in the Houston area are Eagle Pointe, High Meadow Ranch, and Bearkat Course in Huntsville. Gus Wortham and Memorial Park are also great.
On the shelf currently (rehabbing after knee surgery), but should be good to go come spring time and would love to play with fellow FEGC members!
35, married, 2 (soon to be 3) kids, little (but not zero) interest in fighting
I live in Southwest Houston. Primarily play around there (River Pointe, Meadowbrook Farms), but will go all across the Houston metro.
Favorite courses in the Houston area are Eagle Pointe, High Meadow Ranch, and Bearkat Course in Huntsville. Gus Wortham and Memorial Park are also great.
On the shelf currently (rehabbing after knee surgery), but should be good to go come spring time and would love to play with fellow FEGC members!
My state has 4 sand green courses. I've been able to see 2 of them so far and really enjoy the uniqueness. Putting is a bit irrelevant but the shotmaking is a blast. Ground runners, bounch and splashers, or stock high and soft shots are always an option. Although greens are usually tiny so distance control is at a premium with stock shots. Big fan of using my hickories playing them. Has anyone else played a sand greens course? How do you "rate" them? Fun and routing are my 2 categories.
My state has 4 sand green courses. I've been able to see 2 of them so far and really enjoy the uniqueness. Putting is a bit irrelevant but the shotmaking is a blast. Ground runners, bounch and splashers, or stock high and soft shots are always an option. Although greens are usually tiny so distance control is at a premium with stock shots. Big fan of using my hickories playing them. Has anyone else played a sand greens course? How do you "rate" them? Fun and routing are my 2 categories.
When talking about my favorite golf courses I often describe them as being quirky. Two of my very favorite courses on earth are National Golf Links and Merion East, both of which I feel feature some real quirk. Both of these courses are from the teens and have a bit of a vernacular design quality to them. In other words, there really wasn't an established template (for lack of a better word) for what constituted acceptable or "normal" design features at that time. The Old Course has informed golf course architecture more than any other golf course, and I would be hard pressed to think of a more quirky collection of golf holes. There are many other examples of great golf courses that are also quirky, North Berwick for example. I'm sure that you, if you think about golf course architecture could cite your own examples.
I value quirk so much that I've often tried to think about it as a fourth principle of design. Strategic, Heroic, Penal, and Quirky. But can quirky really be designed, and if it is, does it come across as inauthentic? I don't necessarily think so, I think the 7th at Ballyneal is a tremendously fun golf hole that is quirky as hell, but doesn't feel like a party trick. But I can see that a modern golf course design trying to get too cute, or lean into quirk too much could elicit scorn from a lot of players. So I ask you, could quirkiness be a design principle or is it merely a byproduct of unique landforms or features that the routing is required to play over or around? It certainly feels more prevalent in older golf courses, but I'd welcome further examples of modern quirky designs; Ones that you feel pursue the goal successfully or even ones that you feel were less successful in it.
When talking about my favorite golf courses I often describe them as being quirky. Two of my very favorite courses on earth are National Golf Links and Merion East, both of which I feel feature some real quirk. Both of these courses are from the teens and have a bit of a vernacular design quality to them. In other words, there really wasn't an established template (for lack of a better word) for what constituted acceptable or "normal" design features at that time. The Old Course has informed golf course architecture more than any other golf course, and I would be hard pressed to think of a more quirky collection of golf holes. There are many other examples of great golf courses that are also quirky, North Berwick for example. I'm sure that you, if you think about golf course architecture could cite your own examples.
I value quirk so much that I've often tried to think about it as a fourth principle of design. Strategic, Heroic, Penal, and Quirky. But can quirky really be designed, and if it is, does it come across as inauthentic? I don't necessarily think so, I think the 7th at Ballyneal is a tremendously fun golf hole that is quirky as hell, but doesn't feel like a party trick. But I can see that a modern golf course design trying to get too cute, or lean into quirk too much could elicit scorn from a lot of players. So I ask you, could quirkiness be a design principle or is it merely a byproduct of unique landforms or features that the routing is required to play over or around? It certainly feels more prevalent in older golf courses, but I'd welcome further examples of modern quirky designs; Ones that you feel pursue the goal successfully or even ones that you feel were less successful in it.
https://www.thefriedegg.com/articles/in-praise-of-the-golf-buddy
I wrote this because it feels like we don't talk enough about the therapeutic benefits of golf, and how you really don't need a great course or a great score as long as you have a good person with you.
It also felt like a good discussion post: When was a time a Golf Buddy lifted you up?
You can share here or shoot me a note at kvv@thefriedegg.com
https://www.thefriedegg.com/articles/in-praise-of-the-golf-buddy
I wrote this because it feels like we don't talk enough about the therapeutic benefits of golf, and how you really don't need a great course or a great score as long as you have a good person with you.
It also felt like a good discussion post: When was a time a Golf Buddy lifted you up?
You can share here or shoot me a note at kvv@thefriedegg.com
I think the way we discuss and approach the idea of penal and strategic as a binary needs improvement. As it creates a reductive discussion seeking a binary answer to a non-binary problem.
As it’s clearly evident in every great both strategic or penal hole, all have a clear penal hazard or strongly directive contours that direct a lead one or multiple lines of play.
If we believe this last statement to be true, then we must accept a non-binary application of the terminology. This scale is a work in progress and is presented with an interest in discussion of not only the concept but the definitions and how best to apply it to features, holes, and golf courses.
The 0 is reserved for golf essentially as impossible or inconsequential.
The 1 is the golden goose. We haven’t been able to define or find a purely strategic hole without a clear penalty. They either are a bit too penal to be a 1 or they are so ineffective that it creates a 0. So 1 and the definition of strategy are open for debate.
(?)
7 is much clearer as that’s the point of penal golf. The most recent perfect example was 18 at Bethpage with the flanking bunkers on the drive and the uphill cross-bunkered approach.
Excited to hear and see the discussion. Remember this is a tool for discussing and cataloging golf not a value judgement on the hole or its quality. (Please find a way to add photos to comments; this thread needs it).
I think the way we discuss and approach the idea of penal and strategic as a binary needs improvement. As it creates a reductive discussion seeking a binary answer to a non-binary problem.
As it’s clearly evident in every great both strategic or penal hole, all have a clear penal hazard or strongly directive contours that direct a lead one or multiple lines of play.
If we believe this last statement to be true, then we must accept a non-binary application of the terminology. This scale is a work in progress and is presented with an interest in discussion of not only the concept but the definitions and how best to apply it to features, holes, and golf courses.
The 0 is reserved for golf essentially as impossible or inconsequential.
The 1 is the golden goose. We haven’t been able to define or find a purely strategic hole without a clear penalty. They either are a bit too penal to be a 1 or they are so ineffective that it creates a 0. So 1 and the definition of strategy are open for debate.
(?)
7 is much clearer as that’s the point of penal golf. The most recent perfect example was 18 at Bethpage with the flanking bunkers on the drive and the uphill cross-bunkered approach.
Excited to hear and see the discussion. Remember this is a tool for discussing and cataloging golf not a value judgement on the hole or its quality. (Please find a way to add photos to comments; this thread needs it).
OCM has my attention. Their original US work is only beginning to come on line at Fall Line and Luling, though not too many will have played them yet. But early images suggest a possible new flavor for where architecture and design can be heading. I sense a middle ground between, say, the camps of Doak and Coore & Crenshaw compared to perhaps King and Collins, Franz, or Jackson Khan. Something maybe closer to Scott Hoffman, though I haven't seen his work yet.
My initial reaction to OCM is that their work is rooted in a naturalism that doesn't err too far into universal playability. A naturalism with teeth. There's width and angles, but moments of constriction, then approaches and green complexes that visually appear more exacting than perhaps what's been produced at many Dream Golf types of examples in recent years.
As an example, Tepetonka provided a flyover of their entire routing on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQxDCcckYaz/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
It looks quite good to me. Big, broad land with significant slope. Like it could almost be a midwestern skiing area, but with likely less elevation. Par 4s and 5s are often routed over grand scaled corridors, and the par 3s are nestled into amphitheaters of trees. The land has some deeper ravines from glacier retreat, and a good-sized creek comes close to a few greens.
Initial comparison might be something like High Pointe meets CapRock Ranch? No doubt good courses to be in conversation with.
Some notes I made from the flyover:
The routing seems very compelling. There may be a couple moments of directional back and forth, and the creek system seems to have a pattern of guarding the front and left side of greens/holes. But the par 3s appear in beautiful spots and both the opening and closing holes appear very strong.
1 is a big bold par 5 with a elevated forced carry tee shot--a theme that appears on a handful of holes.
3 is a lovely par 3 downhill over the creek.
4, a par 4, looks to have severe slope right to left with bunkers lining the left side to ostensibly save balls from tumbling into the woods. Then it also has an imposing looking green complex with massive bunkers.
6 has a beautiful natural green site.
8 again strikes a balance of beauty and perceived challenge. Long par 5 with what looks like a perimeter running along entire right hand side.
11! Hogs back potentially drivable par 4 with deflecting slopes falling on both sides the closer you get to the green. Great risk and reward, but with real teeth!
12 another intimate par 3 situated in cedars.
14! Shorter par 5 but with the creek heavily guarding the green.
15! Stunning par 3 guarded by creek left and bunkers right.
16 bunkerless maybe for the entire hole. Expansive forced carry over wetlands or bog (?) with a walking/cart bridge. Elevated green.
Wasn't sure whether to title the thread Tepetonka or OCM more generally. Happy to hear thoughts on both course and the architects.
OCM has my attention. Their original US work is only beginning to come on line at Fall Line and Luling, though not too many will have played them yet. But early images suggest a possible new flavor for where architecture and design can be heading. I sense a middle ground between, say, the camps of Doak and Coore & Crenshaw compared to perhaps King and Collins, Franz, or Jackson Khan. Something maybe closer to Scott Hoffman, though I haven't seen his work yet.
My initial reaction to OCM is that their work is rooted in a naturalism that doesn't err too far into universal playability. A naturalism with teeth. There's width and angles, but moments of constriction, then approaches and green complexes that visually appear more exacting than perhaps what's been produced at many Dream Golf types of examples in recent years.
As an example, Tepetonka provided a flyover of their entire routing on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQxDCcckYaz/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
It looks quite good to me. Big, broad land with significant slope. Like it could almost be a midwestern skiing area, but with likely less elevation. Par 4s and 5s are often routed over grand scaled corridors, and the par 3s are nestled into amphitheaters of trees. The land has some deeper ravines from glacier retreat, and a good-sized creek comes close to a few greens.
Initial comparison might be something like High Pointe meets CapRock Ranch? No doubt good courses to be in conversation with.
Some notes I made from the flyover:
The routing seems very compelling. There may be a couple moments of directional back and forth, and the creek system seems to have a pattern of guarding the front and left side of greens/holes. But the par 3s appear in beautiful spots and both the opening and closing holes appear very strong.
1 is a big bold par 5 with a elevated forced carry tee shot--a theme that appears on a handful of holes.
3 is a lovely par 3 downhill over the creek.
4, a par 4, looks to have severe slope right to left with bunkers lining the left side to ostensibly save balls from tumbling into the woods. Then it also has an imposing looking green complex with massive bunkers.
6 has a beautiful natural green site.
8 again strikes a balance of beauty and perceived challenge. Long par 5 with what looks like a perimeter running along entire right hand side.
11! Hogs back potentially drivable par 4 with deflecting slopes falling on both sides the closer you get to the green. Great risk and reward, but with real teeth!
12 another intimate par 3 situated in cedars.
14! Shorter par 5 but with the creek heavily guarding the green.
15! Stunning par 3 guarded by creek left and bunkers right.
16 bunkerless maybe for the entire hole. Expansive forced carry over wetlands or bog (?) with a walking/cart bridge. Elevated green.
Wasn't sure whether to title the thread Tepetonka or OCM more generally. Happy to hear thoughts on both course and the architects.
We're kicking around this idea internally and are interested to see who would be inclined to participate? To be determined how often the club meets but we would love to see how many people would like to jump in. Consider it a club that discusses golf books and golf-adjacent books
We're kicking around this idea internally and are interested to see who would be inclined to participate? To be determined how often the club meets but we would love to see how many people would like to jump in. Consider it a club that discusses golf books and golf-adjacent books
Must-watch stuff from Pablo Torre this morning on golf's "hyest flyer."
A lot of receipts presented, showing Phil Mickelson's links with a troubled energy company begging to be bailed out by the White House.
You know the content is good because Phil is already threatening to sue random Twitter accounts that engage with it.
Must-watch stuff from Pablo Torre this morning on golf's "hyest flyer."
A lot of receipts presented, showing Phil Mickelson's links with a troubled energy company begging to be bailed out by the White House.
You know the content is good because Phil is already threatening to sue random Twitter accounts that engage with it.
This is a topic that could be controversial, and I don't mean for it to be, I'm just genuinely curious...
I attended a Fried Egg Golf event at Lancaster Country Club in (I want to say) 2021. The event featured 2 rounds of golf, lunch, a tee prize, and prizes for the winners. I believe the entry cost was around $425. I might not be exact on those numbers, but it was close to that. It was a great day out there (despite the greens being dialed up to US Open conditions). Now I can't help but thinking that this same event, with those same inclusions would probably come in at $899 and feature a waitlist.
I don't mean this as an attack on the Fried Egg at all, in my local area last month there was an event by another group at Aronimink that was $1200+ for a one day event. The list of golf courses I'd pay $1200 to play is very short, but that's fine, I don't have to pay it and there are many people who were willing to do so. But it really got me thinking, what happened in the last 5 years that has caused these events more than double in price? Did I just catch it in the early days of these events when clubs and organizations were trying to figure out how much these things should cost? Have the clubs decided that they are going to jack up their prices and the resulting entry fees have skyrocketed? Or is this honestly a case of just trying to find the ceiling? I don't blame Fried Egg Golf or anyone trying to make a profit on these events, and as I said earlier, there's a waitlist for many of these events so why leave money on the table?
Again, not an attack on anyone or anything. I can't be the only one who looks at the cost of some of these events and is surprised at how much they've increased.
This is a topic that could be controversial, and I don't mean for it to be, I'm just genuinely curious...
I attended a Fried Egg Golf event at Lancaster Country Club in (I want to say) 2021. The event featured 2 rounds of golf, lunch, a tee prize, and prizes for the winners. I believe the entry cost was around $425. I might not be exact on those numbers, but it was close to that. It was a great day out there (despite the greens being dialed up to US Open conditions). Now I can't help but thinking that this same event, with those same inclusions would probably come in at $899 and feature a waitlist.
I don't mean this as an attack on the Fried Egg at all, in my local area last month there was an event by another group at Aronimink that was $1200+ for a one day event. The list of golf courses I'd pay $1200 to play is very short, but that's fine, I don't have to pay it and there are many people who were willing to do so. But it really got me thinking, what happened in the last 5 years that has caused these events more than double in price? Did I just catch it in the early days of these events when clubs and organizations were trying to figure out how much these things should cost? Have the clubs decided that they are going to jack up their prices and the resulting entry fees have skyrocketed? Or is this honestly a case of just trying to find the ceiling? I don't blame Fried Egg Golf or anyone trying to make a profit on these events, and as I said earlier, there's a waitlist for many of these events so why leave money on the table?
Again, not an attack on anyone or anything. I can't be the only one who looks at the cost of some of these events and is surprised at how much they've increased.
We’re down to the final four! Check out our full FEGC Design Contest Review with Andy Staples and vote on which hole you think should be built at Breezy Point.
We’re down to the final four! Check out our full FEGC Design Contest Review with Andy Staples and vote on which hole you think should be built at Breezy Point.
