Pinehurst Resortposted some photos of Coore & Crenshaw's in-progress design at Pinehurst No. 11, next door to Tom Doak's No. 10 course. The property — which contains remnants of an old sand mine as well as a few abandoned hole corridors from the Pit Golf Links — looks gnarly, knobbly, and unpredictable.
Will this be the most unconventional-looking course Coore & Crenshaw have designed since... I don't know, Talking Stick? We'll see.
One constant, however, is C&C's architectural philosophy. "We don't plan to move a lot of material," Ben Crenshaw said in an interview posted by the resort. "We very much like to let the holes and the land speak for themselves, and do little things."
Pinehurst Resortposted some photos of Coore & Crenshaw's in-progress design at Pinehurst No. 11, next door to Tom Doak's No. 10 course. The property — which contains remnants of an old sand mine as well as a few abandoned hole corridors from the Pit Golf Links — looks gnarly, knobbly, and unpredictable.
Will this be the most unconventional-looking course Coore & Crenshaw have designed since... I don't know, Talking Stick? We'll see.
One constant, however, is C&C's architectural philosophy. "We don't plan to move a lot of material," Ben Crenshaw said in an interview posted by the resort. "We very much like to let the holes and the land speak for themselves, and do little things."
First discussion topic and first post all baked into one! If Harris English is correct and the "new" PGA Tour will have open weeks/gap weeks, why not make Monday Qualifiers matter? Pre-1983 or so, there were only 60 exempt players and the rest had to either finish top-15 the week prior or Monday qualify. It wasn't for one or two spots, it was for many. If the new Tour will have off weeks before and after some, many or all of the PGA Tour events, why not make the week start on Monday with a robust Monday Qualifying event from which 20 or 30 or 40 players qualify? That could be a great kick-off to the week, especially if there isn't a tournament the week before. Thoughts?
First discussion topic and first post all baked into one! If Harris English is correct and the "new" PGA Tour will have open weeks/gap weeks, why not make Monday Qualifiers matter? Pre-1983 or so, there were only 60 exempt players and the rest had to either finish top-15 the week prior or Monday qualify. It wasn't for one or two spots, it was for many. If the new Tour will have off weeks before and after some, many or all of the PGA Tour events, why not make the week start on Monday with a robust Monday Qualifying event from which 20 or 30 or 40 players qualify? That could be a great kick-off to the week, especially if there isn't a tournament the week before. Thoughts?
I've booked a foursome for this Saturday at the par 3 course at Olympic if anyone is interested in joining. I think the guest fee is $45 and if you're a member just shoot me a note and I can update the tee time and add you.
If we get more than four people interested and have another member we can book multiple times.
The weather looks nice and mid-afternoon has been the most pleasant to be outside over the past week or so.
I've booked a foursome for this Saturday at the par 3 course at Olympic if anyone is interested in joining. I think the guest fee is $45 and if you're a member just shoot me a note and I can update the tee time and add you.
If we get more than four people interested and have another member we can book multiple times.
The weather looks nice and mid-afternoon has been the most pleasant to be outside over the past week or so.
This was a pleasant addition to my Wednesday routine last summer but seemed like a short lived experiment. Are there planes (or even an opportunity) to do it again?
This was a pleasant addition to my Wednesday routine last summer but seemed like a short lived experiment. Are there planes (or even an opportunity) to do it again?
Doing a wishlist secret santa with my family this year so I needed to put in some gifts I would wish for. Got me thinking what gift ideas do you have or want as a golf nut / architecture nerd?
Doing a wishlist secret santa with my family this year so I needed to put in some gifts I would wish for. Got me thinking what gift ideas do you have or want as a golf nut / architecture nerd?
Thoroughly enjoyed the SGS nostalgia trip of early life beverage choices. Keystone, Natty, Smirnoff - these are the universal experiences that will bring our society together.
Thoroughly enjoyed the SGS nostalgia trip of early life beverage choices. Keystone, Natty, Smirnoff - these are the universal experiences that will bring our society together.
The family had gone to bed last night, and I found myself with a quiet house. Having not seen much of Royal Melbourne ever, I was excited to turn on the television and watch a bit of the tournament.
what I was treated to was roughly an hour of guys putting. That’s it. Putts. A few bunker shots. Then miraculously there was a digital flyover of a hole after about 45 minutes, and someone hit an approach shot. And then right back to putting.
i’m curious if anyone else has watched the coverage and seen something better. I was disappointed to say the least.
The family had gone to bed last night, and I found myself with a quiet house. Having not seen much of Royal Melbourne ever, I was excited to turn on the television and watch a bit of the tournament.
what I was treated to was roughly an hour of guys putting. That’s it. Putts. A few bunker shots. Then miraculously there was a digital flyover of a hole after about 45 minutes, and someone hit an approach shot. And then right back to putting.
i’m curious if anyone else has watched the coverage and seen something better. I was disappointed to say the least.
40 y/o, married with kids, no interest in fighting!
I'll be in the Sarasota area over the holidays (week in between Christmas and New Years) on a family vacation and I'm looking to sneak out for a round or two. Any recommendations in the area? I'm looking at public courses, but I'm a member at a club in Chicago so any private courses that are accessible with the old pro phone call approach are also a possibility (have had mixed success with that in the past).
I'm looking for a fun and playable vacation round - I don't really care about conditioning or non-golf course amenities. University Park and the Ross course at Bobby Jones were the options that seemed to pop up most via google.
40 y/o, married with kids, no interest in fighting!
I'll be in the Sarasota area over the holidays (week in between Christmas and New Years) on a family vacation and I'm looking to sneak out for a round or two. Any recommendations in the area? I'm looking at public courses, but I'm a member at a club in Chicago so any private courses that are accessible with the old pro phone call approach are also a possibility (have had mixed success with that in the past).
I'm looking for a fun and playable vacation round - I don't really care about conditioning or non-golf course amenities. University Park and the Ross course at Bobby Jones were the options that seemed to pop up most via google.
We pushed out a few forum updates today and hopefully you've already noticed but if you haven't:
We added the comments feed that has historically lived in the Clubhouse to the homepage of the Forum. (note: we have not finished this update for mobile yet but should have it done in the next day or so at the most)
We added a new Sort By options for posts. If you'd like to sort posts by the ones with the most recent comments you can do so by opening the dropdown near the search bar in the forum home page and selecting the option for Recent Activity. This will sort order posts based on the timestamp of their most recent comment (sorted newest to oldest).
We're almost done with Post and Topic following. If you click on a specific post now you'll see a + FOLLOW button in the upper right hand corner of the page. Clicking this will subscribe you to email updates of comments made to that post. Topic following will follow shortly. Additionally, there was a small bug in this feature this morning that should be remedied but if you follow and don't get emails know that we'll squash the bug in short order.
Aside from that, I'll most likely make a change to the Clubhouse later today to make it more focused on members-only articles and course profiles and remove the thread of comments as they now live on the forum home page. Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Cheers!
P.S. We're still working on many other forum enhancements (most notably being able to add images to comments) but as always I'm happy to hear any and all feedback.
We pushed out a few forum updates today and hopefully you've already noticed but if you haven't:
We added the comments feed that has historically lived in the Clubhouse to the homepage of the Forum. (note: we have not finished this update for mobile yet but should have it done in the next day or so at the most)
We added a new Sort By options for posts. If you'd like to sort posts by the ones with the most recent comments you can do so by opening the dropdown near the search bar in the forum home page and selecting the option for Recent Activity. This will sort order posts based on the timestamp of their most recent comment (sorted newest to oldest).
We're almost done with Post and Topic following. If you click on a specific post now you'll see a + FOLLOW button in the upper right hand corner of the page. Clicking this will subscribe you to email updates of comments made to that post. Topic following will follow shortly. Additionally, there was a small bug in this feature this morning that should be remedied but if you follow and don't get emails know that we'll squash the bug in short order.
Aside from that, I'll most likely make a change to the Clubhouse later today to make it more focused on members-only articles and course profiles and remove the thread of comments as they now live on the forum home page. Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Cheers!
P.S. We're still working on many other forum enhancements (most notably being able to add images to comments) but as always I'm happy to hear any and all feedback.
Yesterday, as FEGC member Pearce Barringer noted in his own forum post, TGL announced that architect Gil Hanse had joined the screen-golf league's roster of hole designers. Accompanying the announcement was an awkward, faintly surreal video of a bemused Hanse making a WWE-like entrance into an empty SoFi Center. I'd love to hear the instructions the director of this piece of content gave him before hitting record.
TGL also unveiled one of Hanse's designs, a 590-yard par 5 called "Stone & Steeple." The hole features a few recognizable Hanse motifs: a threatening boundary wall, a lone bunker guarding the second-shot layup zone, and a rambling "Sahara" bunker, strewn with turf islands, cutting across the fairway. The neighboring graveyard even has precedent in Hanse's body of work: in his renovation of Waverley Country Club in Portland, Oregon, he moved the second green about 50 yards back so that it abutted a 19th-century cemetery.
The most striking aspect of Hanse's design is the double diagonal formed by the two sections of fairway on either side of the Sahara bunker. The basic idea, I gather, is that the farther players hit their drives without carrying the bunker, the more to the right they will end up, and the worse their angle into the green will be. On the other hand, if they want to make the long carry over the bunker on the left side and earn a shorter second shot from a better angle, they will need to bring the wall into play.
Classic strategic-school stuff, in other words. I think I'd enjoy playing this hole, if it were real. And you know what? It basically looks real. And that might be a problem.
So far, the reception of "Stone & Steeple" on social media has been chilly. There seems to be an emerging consensus among TGL viewers that the virtual-hole designs, unconstrained as they are by physical and economic realities, should be crazier, more video game-like, more purely inventive. As my colleague Joseph LaMagna put it on X, "TGL's biggest whiff is designing realistic holes. It makes zero sense to play holes like [Hanse's] in the one arena that's free from practical constraints."
That's probably right. The realism of Hanse's hole registers as a bit unimaginative.
But I have a hard time getting worked up about it because — confession time — I don't really care about TGL. I could barely make it through a single match in the first season. And this is not to say that the product is bad or that the people who enjoy it are rubes. It's just not for me. A huge part of what I love about golf is the relationship between the player, the course, and nature. When you strip away nature — the outdoors, the elements, the land — I lose most of my interest.
But what I'd like to hear Hanse address at some point is why he was interested in TGL. In a press release from the league, he said, "Starting with a relatively blank slate for TGL has been liberating. Designing holes for TGL has given us an opportunity to step out of our comfort zone and step into other aspects of golf course design in the virtual world."
As an architect who typically likes to derive inspiration from physical terrain, why was he compelled by the prospect of a "blank slate"? And in what sense did he stretch beyond his "comfort zone" here?
These are not passive-aggressive questions. I'd genuinely like to hear his answers.
Yesterday, as FEGC member Pearce Barringer noted in his own forum post, TGL announced that architect Gil Hanse had joined the screen-golf league's roster of hole designers. Accompanying the announcement was an awkward, faintly surreal video of a bemused Hanse making a WWE-like entrance into an empty SoFi Center. I'd love to hear the instructions the director of this piece of content gave him before hitting record.
TGL also unveiled one of Hanse's designs, a 590-yard par 5 called "Stone & Steeple." The hole features a few recognizable Hanse motifs: a threatening boundary wall, a lone bunker guarding the second-shot layup zone, and a rambling "Sahara" bunker, strewn with turf islands, cutting across the fairway. The neighboring graveyard even has precedent in Hanse's body of work: in his renovation of Waverley Country Club in Portland, Oregon, he moved the second green about 50 yards back so that it abutted a 19th-century cemetery.
The most striking aspect of Hanse's design is the double diagonal formed by the two sections of fairway on either side of the Sahara bunker. The basic idea, I gather, is that the farther players hit their drives without carrying the bunker, the more to the right they will end up, and the worse their angle into the green will be. On the other hand, if they want to make the long carry over the bunker on the left side and earn a shorter second shot from a better angle, they will need to bring the wall into play.
Classic strategic-school stuff, in other words. I think I'd enjoy playing this hole, if it were real. And you know what? It basically looks real. And that might be a problem.
So far, the reception of "Stone & Steeple" on social media has been chilly. There seems to be an emerging consensus among TGL viewers that the virtual-hole designs, unconstrained as they are by physical and economic realities, should be crazier, more video game-like, more purely inventive. As my colleague Joseph LaMagna put it on X, "TGL's biggest whiff is designing realistic holes. It makes zero sense to play holes like [Hanse's] in the one arena that's free from practical constraints."
That's probably right. The realism of Hanse's hole registers as a bit unimaginative.
But I have a hard time getting worked up about it because — confession time — I don't really care about TGL. I could barely make it through a single match in the first season. And this is not to say that the product is bad or that the people who enjoy it are rubes. It's just not for me. A huge part of what I love about golf is the relationship between the player, the course, and nature. When you strip away nature — the outdoors, the elements, the land — I lose most of my interest.
But what I'd like to hear Hanse address at some point is why he was interested in TGL. In a press release from the league, he said, "Starting with a relatively blank slate for TGL has been liberating. Designing holes for TGL has given us an opportunity to step out of our comfort zone and step into other aspects of golf course design in the virtual world."
As an architect who typically likes to derive inspiration from physical terrain, why was he compelled by the prospect of a "blank slate"? And in what sense did he stretch beyond his "comfort zone" here?
These are not passive-aggressive questions. I'd genuinely like to hear his answers.
Hey everyone. I thought it would be good to get this going for the NYC area. Always down to get out for a round and occasionally hit the sim in the winter. 31 married w/ no kids
Hey everyone. I thought it would be good to get this going for the NYC area. Always down to get out for a round and occasionally hit the sim in the winter. 31 married w/ no kids
Interested to see what Gil brings to the screen golf. I've only played two of Gil's courses, Sewanee and Mossy Oak, but like everyone, I've seen my fair share on TV and social media. Gil usually brings restraint and simplicity to his courses, with an emphasis on green complexes and their surroundings. Not exactly something you can implement in TGL.
Side note, is this a sign of things to come for a working partnership with the PGA Tour? I'd love to see Gil get his hands on a course or two. I know TGL and the Tour are separate, but in partnership with one another. One can dream.
Interested to see what Gil brings to the screen golf. I've only played two of Gil's courses, Sewanee and Mossy Oak, but like everyone, I've seen my fair share on TV and social media. Gil usually brings restraint and simplicity to his courses, with an emphasis on green complexes and their surroundings. Not exactly something you can implement in TGL.
Side note, is this a sign of things to come for a working partnership with the PGA Tour? I'd love to see Gil get his hands on a course or two. I know TGL and the Tour are separate, but in partnership with one another. One can dream.
I love sand based turf as much as everyone and understand the agronomy benefits. Who doesn't love blowouts and open/isolated spaces. That being said I kind of wish there would be a few new parkland style courses. Ones not suffocated by trees and housing, not restorations doing a bunch of removal, and not perimeter tree lined places where the trees don't really come into play. Would be interesting to see one of todays top teams have to route the land and trees without bulldozing the lot.
Maybe there are such places that have been built and I'm just not aware of them. (I know Sedge was kind of done this way but is still sand with no trees in play)
I love sand based turf as much as everyone and understand the agronomy benefits. Who doesn't love blowouts and open/isolated spaces. That being said I kind of wish there would be a few new parkland style courses. Ones not suffocated by trees and housing, not restorations doing a bunch of removal, and not perimeter tree lined places where the trees don't really come into play. Would be interesting to see one of todays top teams have to route the land and trees without bulldozing the lot.
Maybe there are such places that have been built and I'm just not aware of them. (I know Sedge was kind of done this way but is still sand with no trees in play)
Beautifully written, KVV.
DFW's commencement speech is overquoted, but your words brought his to mind: "Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship."
A few of the pictures need to be rotated and just making a suggestion, adding the “par” designation for each hole, gives context to how the holes sequence together. As always, content is top notch still!
Listened to the Designing Golf pod, and my my experience, Garrett was spot on about the utilitarian nature of the Hawtree families work. Hawtree family was involved in the design, redesign and renovation of quite a few golf courses here in Belgium (where I live). And, after playing nearly all the courses they have had a presence, they have a style that rarely terrible or great...just pragmatic. I've not been a fan of some of the places they have been hired for green redesigns, because their greens are not very interesting with contours, relying mostly on bunkering around the greens as the defenestration of par. I think the Hawtree families best work is when they did the entire design, such as Royal Limburg and Royal Waterloo, where their style is consistent. They are often rated in the top 5 of courses in Belgium....although, I really prefer Limburg...its heathland with some quirk and lots of heather.
Well supported argument, and I tend to agree. I think a similar defense could be given for The Players being a major on the men's side too (elite field, legacy, money, strong test, etc). There is a definite aversion to reconsidering majors, but I think it's important to remember that nothing was a "major" immediately. Every major has reached that status over time
David, I’ve been on the road too much but we are hoping to do one ourselves in August. If you are willing to help set one up we’d love to se that happen in July!
Hi again everyone. Been a while since I last been on the site. Happy to host anyone at the Links at Perry Cabin in St. Michaels. Also a member at Stonewall n Elverson PA. Let me know and also happy to try to join anyone at another course. Happy 4th!
“ Whenever I play the New Course in St. Andrews, I am subconsciously faced with a difficult question, one that likely cannot be answered: Is it possible to fairly judge (and ultimately enjoy) something on its own merit without contrasting it to a neighboring course that is its clear superior?”
Will could have started his review of the Augusta Country Club the same way!
Thank you for the this write up. I was fortunate to play the New Course on an amazing trip to Scotland last summer with 7 friends. The New Course round was essentially an after thought for our group and was only acquired in order for our group to get access to the Old Course. Some guys understandably skipped it to rest after 36 the day before at Muirfield, in preparation for the Old the next day. I ended up playing with one other from our group and our driver Alan, a colorful Scotsman and avid golfer. He also acted as our unofficial caddy as he had played the New many a time. I can only describe the round as care free, enjoyable stroll. No nerves or pressure that comes with playing an Open Rota venue. Nothing felt monumental…..in a good way. It was just golf on sacred ground.
#9 was definitely the most intimidating par 3 on the trip! 230 yds into the breeze. Estuary left, gorse filled gully right. I did not birdie it!
Great write-up, thank you! I agree that the New Course's quality and relaxed atmosphere make it an underappreciated part of St. Andrews. Our group played it twice a couple years ago in September, as pressure from the AIG Women's Open and Dunhill Cup limited Old Course access. Even though it was not even on our formal trip itinerary, the New Course was one of our favorites (above heavyweights like Carnoustie and Royal Aberdeen) and the experience prompted us to play multiple rounds.
Part of the fun is also in walking up to a great course and having the starter apologize for asking you to wait 45 mins before teeing off. It is a refreshing antidote to the formalized puffery of most US golf. The New Course quickly removed any (first world) angst created by not "winning" the Old Course ballot / lottery.
Hole seven was fun om sunday afternoon but that is only because of the big tail wind they had. I dont know why they did not build a new tee for them on 14? They play that hole longer then the men do. I too cant wait to see a new Hazeltine.
Joseph, amazing article. Written with a bravado worthy of Mr. Block. Came back to read it again after seeing his haircut in advance of the US Senior Open. Can't wait to read it again after he fulfills his destiny on Sunday.
Love this comp, Dan. I also thought 1-5 were excellent holes.
The way the routing works it is sort of a funhouse version of Spyglass. There, the best and most memorable holes all come right away at the beginning of the round. However you feel about the forest holes that follow, the course's highlight comes early. At The Creek you get the better version of that in two ways. The more memorable holes come later and there are more of them.
